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 Do you support SB 1070?

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LC
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PostSubject: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:21 pm

I personally don't see what it's really going to do, anyhow. So some people will be stopped and turned over to ICE. ICE isn't doing anything with them now, anyhow, so what's the point?
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:58 am

I have talked with many people who support the law without having read it. They get what they know about it from the unholy trinity, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck.

It empowers rather than limits racial profiling.

It gives law enforcement officers more power than they ought to have.

The "without a warrant" part is particularly troubling. It is chilling to know that cops will have that kind of power.

The parts about a vehicle that impedes the flow of traffic gives law enforcement more discretionary power than is needed.

The law neglects to define "probable cause."

It lets cops impound your car if they want to for any of many vague reasons.

I see potential violations of constitutional rights resulting from the new directions and authority given policemen.

So, what will it do? It will clog the calendar of the Supreme Court until they overturn it.
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JoElle
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:39 am

First Arizona.
Then Utah.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0714/utah-immigrant-list-probe/

Sheeesh!
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:48 am

Unholy trinity, lol.

I think you're overreacting though. Without a warrant? From what I've read, cops have to have another reason for stopping someone. I suppose they could make up a reason, but with all the scrutiny they'll be under (and the baiters and agitators trying to start something), I don't see that happening.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:44 am

I agree with Al.
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:26 pm

LC wrote:
Unholy trinity, lol.

I think you're overreacting though. Without a warrant? From what I've read, cops have to have another reason for stopping someone. I suppose they could make up a reason, but with all the scrutiny they'll be under (and the baiters and agitators trying to start something), I don't see that happening.
I don't know what you've read, but try reading the law itself. I didn't find anywhere that said they needed another reason to stop anyone. That part is being challenged now. A federal court overturned it. And Arizona lawmakers intend to take it all the way.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:12 pm

I heard on NPR tonight that a stop was put on some of the more heinous pieces of the bill though the rest is going forward.

I repeat from a previous post. Let's have them cut out cloth suns and sew them on the front and back of their clothing to identify them as U.S. legal Mexicans so they aren't profiled. Better yet, let's set up a U.S. legal Mexican ghetto where they all live. Then their papers can be checked as they leave the gates to and from work morning and evening.

Then, with them all together, armed officers on trucks can go into the ghetto neighborhoods and look for illegals, children and family members, and load them up in their trucks and haul them off with their legal family members left bereft and the legal children without their working illegal parents, left to social services for care.

You know, like was done to the Indians - put them on reservations. Or like the camps for U.S. citizens who were also Japanese.

Makes me want to puke.

And I repeat again: If the employers do not hire illegal aliens to clean their houses, care for their children, mow their lawns, build their roads, tar their roofs, pick their strawberries and celery, pluck their chickens, make their deli meats, tan hides, and other labor intensive work, THEY WILL NOT COME HERE. The only reason on God's green earth that anyone comes here is for work and/or escape political tyranny. They can starve in their own countries; they can be brutalized by political systems in their own countries.

Put the teeth in the legislation where it belongs - the people who hire cheap labor and don't check papers, from individuals like you and me who need cheap labor ourselves to the conglomerate farm industry. Replace the Madison Avenue advertising for workers in S. American countries "Come to the U.S. and be rich." with signs, "No jobs in the U.S. Only hate and police tyranny." That'll keep them home. The criminals are the employers; the illegals are the victims of false advertising.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:01 pm



7/29/2010

DK..

I agree with you 1000%

Cheers..Joe
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:54 pm

DK,

I agree also.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:09 pm

Carrying an ID would solve many problems.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:36 am

Abe F. March wrote:
Carrying an ID would solve many problems.

I don't know, Abe. I've known attorneys, education administrators, and doctors who have been pulled over in cities like Houston simply because they had dark skin, and some misguided cops assumed they must have been dealing drugs to have such fine cars, since "everybody knew" that such people probably weren't professionals. They had driver's licenses. Should they have carried copies of their advanced degrees as well?

Ann
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:56 am

Everyone has an ID and we all carry it. If you drive a car, you have an ID. If you are legal in this country you have a green card. If you don't drive, you can get a state ID from the license bureau. You have to have an ID to open a bank account and to get money back from the account.

If you don't qualify for an ID, then you buy one. They are of excellent quality. Of course, the only ones that will be checked for authenticity are those with the "wrong" people.

These are all unnecessary side issues born of bias. The real issue is with employers. Period. Employers and the politicians who should be enforcing the existing laws against hiring people not legal to work.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:35 am



WOW, thank you for the enlightenment. I guess until I read this thread, I never realized how prejudiced I was. For years and years, I was under the misguided belief that the Latino gangbangers that fill the streets of New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and nearly every other major city and are spilling over into the suburbs of the United States, were made up of pimps, drug pushers, gunrunners, murderers and other criminal elements, many of whom were in the this country illegally, only to find out they are really strawberry, celery picking maids and laborers supported by the real criminals ďCorporate AmericaĒ.

I say, LETS SHIP ALL THE CORPORATIONS TO MEXICO AND SOUTH AMERICA AND LET MORE GANGBANGERS INTO THE U.S.!


God knows, we don't want to inconvenience anyone by having them have to show an ID along with their driver's license and proof of insurance at a traffic stop.

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:06 am

I might suggest that a good ID would be a social security card with photo. Standardization is needed.

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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:32 am

The legislation is not designed to eliminate criminals; there is sufficient legislation on the books for that purpose. The legislation is a direct result of S. American migrant workers coming into the United States at the invitation of corporate farm conglomerates to do back breaking menial work. Once they were here, they discovered other employers were also happy to hire them for the work no one else would do at the wages offered. Where they made their mistake was by not remaining in substandard, filthy migrant housing and only shopping at overpriced local stores. They became active members of communities and churches; they had family units. They had children. When attention needed to focus away from the exhorbitant cost of two wars and the crash of the economy, these people were visible and they were working.

Everything else is bias and smoke screen. We each have a right to our own prejudices and I pity those who can't rise above them. As my girlfriends says, they are missing out on a lot of valuable cultural experiences that would enrich their lives.

It happens that this is my area of expertise. I serve on a board that advocates for the working poor of this country. I access real facts, not emotional inuendo and political expediency. These hard working people are not my political tool. They are human beings with the same blood in their veins as I carry in mine. When I need life blood, my doctor won't ask what race donated it; he'll only ask for the blood type. For me, blood is the equalizer; it is a fact that our very lives are controlled by the same fluid regardless of our sex or heritage. Only a creation of the mind finds reasons to stereotype and judge any group of people for their differences.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:40 am

I also believe it is my responsibility to speak out against bias and prejudice wherever it rears its ugly head in my presence. I will not be silent among my friends or foes and willingly allow the heinous crimes against other human beings that come from silence in the throws of injustice occur without my protest.

The United States is not a small country. It is a collection of many states who still wish to retain some measure of individuality. Every state has different driving laws; try a cross-country drive to experience them. In Muskegon, Michigan they have a left turn, blinking red arrow. I was totally dumbfounded as to the rules for that one.

So long as I have a driver's license and my insurance card and registration for my car, that's enough! That'll find me in any data system.

Yes, we mostly have a national id with our SS card. I guess if some legislature wants to require us to wear it around our necks, that would make ID in the U.S. uniform. I see it as unnecessary.

Again, that is all smoke screen. No jobs equals no illegals with the exception of criminals who will come anyway and fall into the jurisdiction of the exisiting legal system.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:14 pm

DK,

Iím going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. I feel this legislation was a direct result of a desire to eliminate the flow of the criminal element into Arizona. I respect you and your work on behalf of the working poor in this country, regardless of where they come from, God Bless you for your efforts. I also respect your right to voice your opinion and take a stand for your position on this legislation. I wore the uniform for ten years and earned four Purple Hearts defending your right to openly voice that opinion, but I donít have to agree with it. You stated your reasons for being against the legislation and I for mine for it. I will not jeopardize friendship to debate politics or religion with anyone. Debating this issue on an internet forum isnít going to change anything, write your congressman as I have written mine and letís hope that they and the courts come up with something that makes this great country a better place for all.

Have a WONDERFUL DAY!
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:28 pm

Thanks Don for expressing our rights so well. I do feel obligated to express my opinion just as you have and I am actively engaged in political advocacy based on the facts from which I operate. Thank you also for your service to our country and for complimenting my work. I also worked for five years with the 8th Army in Seoul, S. Korea and many of my best friends were career service people with multiple tours where their lives were at risk for my benefit. I was also working in Washington, D.C. and partying with the boys at Quantico preparing for deployment to Viet Nam, many who did not return. My best friend has two children who have each served multiple tours in Iraq and her son who left the air force for the Navy ended up at risk a third time by being sent to Afghanistan - the Navy in Afghanistan. Go figure.

I have very close friends with absolutely opposite opinions, and sometimes we do discontinue our discourse to be certain it doesn't go beyond opinion and into that emotional, ego realm where logic goes out the window and friendships are harmed.
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:00 pm

Make sure, before you advocate in favor of or opposition to this law, that you have read the law. Read what it says before you write to your Congressman. End to end. Imagine the various ways that law might be enforced and how it might be used to advance agendas never openly intended by its framers.

Decide whether it is necessary given existing law.

And don't presume that because the feds cannot enforce existing federal law, that state and local law is needed. Local law enforcement already has authority to enforce federal law. It doesn't take a new law if federal law is adequate.

And its intent? Remember that the spirit of the law is often swept under the rug once the letter of the law is enacted.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:04 am

Why not enforce what laws we have?
Why have more?

Americas days of greatness are over.

The greatest thing we could do is end wars, and be peaceable.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:19 am

In one of Ann's posts, philosophers indicate that killing is natural to our species. It may be natural, but we were also given a mind that reasons at a higher level than the rest of the animals. That mind was to take us a cut above survival of the fittest to an appreciation for life. We cannot use as an excuse the societies that are not evolved beyond tribal hates and incorporate those hatreds in our own psyche. We must be more; we must start in our own homes and cities and states to find amicable solutions to problems instead of divisive ones. We must encourage knowledge about issues and dispense with the emotional, political ads. They are an insult to an intelligent person, but a balm to those who don't wish to think.

I saw an inflaming ad about the migrant worker issue showing desperate persons climbing a barbed wire fence with the voice over saying, "they are coming to take your jobs." Yee gads, they were invited to take the jobs no one wanted and still don't want.

The problem with the existing laws is that they are laws that govern the actions of employers; enforcing them creates a political storm of opposition and hidden financial inuendo. They have lobbyists up the gazoo. The migrant worker has no one.

My street is the last street of "white" occupants going West off a connector street between the S. American population at one end and the super rich at the other. What a crossroads!

Three Spanish families bought homes on my street since the housing crisis. They are lovely people. My street is slightly upscale from the streets further east, the last section not "gated." One day, it will probably be all Spanish speaking families. I can think of no better and safer place to live in my old age. I am fortunate.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:05 pm

What should we do? If the existing laws are no good the new law is no good--give the country to Mexico?

I don't understand. I don't want to be mean to anyone, but am wondering what we should do.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:55 pm

DK wrote:

Quote :
In one of Ann's posts, philosophers indicate that killing is natural to
our species. It may be natural, but we were also given a mind that
reasons at a higher level than the rest of the animals. That mind was
to take us a cut above survival of the fittest to an appreciation for
life. We cannot use as an excuse the societies that are not evolved
beyond tribal hates and incorporate those hatreds in our own psyche. We
must be more; we must start in our own homes and cities and states to
find amicable solutions to problems instead of divisive ones. We must
encourage knowledge about issues and dispense with the emotional,
political ads. They are an insult to an intelligent person, but a balm
to those who don't wish to think.

That same article I quoted from in DK's comment made the point that the human is the only animal that is aware that it is going to die at some point.

I hope the comment didn't lead to misunderstanding. those tribes did not act out of hate so much as necessity, and the hunter's who killed for food also prayed to, and worshiped those same animals for their sacrifice.

It was later, after cities developed, that the hunters became warriors who did not kill animals to eat, but killed other humans for their territory. The hatred started there, I think, when the game grew more scarce, and land was considered necessary for the survival of herds and farms. Hoarding and greed became the norm. We are seeing the culmination today. What it seems to me that we need to do is to look at the situation realistically, each of us, and put the responsibility where it belongs, which is not, to my way of thinking, on the backs of the migrant workers who were led to believe that they could pursue a better way of life here, by the landowners who use them and their need.

Those gated communities are an example of what is happening in this country today. Like Prospero's court in Poe's "Masque of the Red Death," they erroneously think that they can escape the consequences. We are trying to deny our human awareness that we all die eventually.

Ann
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:01 pm

I believe the laws regarding the employment of illegal aliens should be enforced against the employers. The employers need to be major fined for not checking for legal work papers. Then they will be forced to hire legally documented workers and to get enough, they will have to pay decent wages and benefits. There will be economic consequences since the price of food will increase and we will be less competitive with imports. However, if the country does not want illegal aliens picking crops, etc., then we will have to cope with the economic consequences.

What many people forget is that we are the employers also: the handyman we employ, the landscaper, the child care worker, the house cleaner, the painter, etc. We are happy to pay less wages, cash under the table; do we ask for legal work papers? We need to be fearful of fines also. It should be cheaper to hire legal workers than pay the fines.

A major ad campaign and arrangment with Guatamala, Mexico and a few other S. American countries needs to make it clear that employers will not hire those who enter the U.S. illegally. Their own countries need to stop them from exiting their borders. The governments need to work together in terms of aid to those countries.

We need to find a way to decrease our drug dependency to help curb the violence at the Mexican borders by decreasing the demand for drugs in the U.S.

A system for legalizing those already in this country already employed in work no one else wants to do should be implemented. Fines (over time) will need to be paid, documents filed, and sponsors (u.s.citizens) who will be responsible for the process need to be matched with the current illegal persons. They need to pay taxes, etc. (which most do anyway).

A new immigration priority system for any person wishing to enter this country needs to be established. All persons wishing to gain citizenship need to have a sponsor already here; preferably a U.S. citizen that guarantees the new immigrant will not become a burden on society.

There's so much more...this is only a beginning. None of my proposals include the inhumane treatment of those who are already here. This is not a police state. I don't want it to become one. The current ICE enforcement is bad enough.
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Do you support SB 1070?   Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:12 pm

alj wrote:

That same article I quoted from in DK's comment made the point that the human is the only animal that is aware that it is going to die at some point.
I've heard that, too. But I wonder, as I do when someone says no two snowflakes are alike, how do we know?
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