Protocol

Subject: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:14 am

Customs are in a constant state of change. They also differ from country
to country.

When I was a kid, we referred to adults as Mr. and Mrs. There was no exception. Aunts and Uncles were addressed as i.e., Aunt Ruth or Uncle Bernard. When did this all change? I believe it was a slow process and the moment too much familiarity came into play, discipline began to decline. The saying that “familiarity breeds contempt” has merit. In the workplace bosses were never called by their first name and they didn’t mingle with those working for them. We had the military draft and every young man who passed the physical had to serve at least two years. He learned discipline and the respect of rank.

Today, the American way is informal at all levels. First names are used and the dress code has become casual. The boss is one of the boys. The boss wants to be liked, and in doing so often loses respect. The American influence of casualness is being felt in other parts of the world. It is still resisted but slowly there is a thawing out. At the same time, discipline is suffering as a result. That is especially true in the schools. Students are no longer required to call their teacher by Mr. or Dr. although many still do. The kids want to appear “cool” and/or “American” in their dress and actions. In business, forgetting the protocol of the country has costs many a salesman loss of business.

Understanding the customs of a country is important if one is to be accepted. To think that everyone must adjust to us is the worst form of arrogance. Respecting one’s culture goes hand-in-hand with respecting one’s religion. The American way does not mean it is the only way or the right way but simply the way America is today.

I happen to like the older ways. It is my choice. Giving respect to people, regardless of culture, is not an offense. Not giving the respect according to protocol, often due to ignorance, can be offensive.

I have found people to be pleased when they are referred to as Sir or Madam, Mr. or Mrs. They may request that you call them by their first name, but the fact that they were given that initial respect, is not forgotten.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:21 am

Sometimes change is a very good thing.
Because of change women and minorities in this country (and others) can vote, get equal pay, get an education. Because of change women are now police officers, fire fighters, and truck drivers. Men can be secretaries, salesclerks, models, hairdressers, and nurses and not fear ridicule.

We can choose who we want to marry and not be part of a land bargain.

Children aren't sold to farmers and businesses when orphaned.

But change can also be not such a good thing. I think showing respect and manners are important. However, I think a lot of the informal address encouraged today is an effort of appearing approachable.

Change is going to happen ... good or bad.

Actually, that is life ... moving on ... changing. And change is part of living.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:50 am

Yes, some change is good, JoElle, but I agree with Abe. I was raised in
the South in a different era and I would never even consider addressing
an adult outside of the family by his/her first name. To this day, I
address my elders as Mr or Mrs.

My thirty-year marriage to an older man taught me many things, and
among them was the importance of respect. While he enjoyed teaching
children some of the skills he'd learned growing up in northern MN, he
demanded respect. He'd bristle if a child addressed him by his first
name. What's worse, some adults would introduce him to their children
and use his first name. He'd always politely correct them, holding out
his hand to the child, saying, "I'm Mr Seaman." While some
people thought he was arrogant, and even I questioned it when we
first married, I came to realize that children need that separation.
They need someone to respect.

I find I still hold the same views. Being approachable does not
necessarily mean lowering standards. Showing respect is still demanded
today, and it's something most of us, as writers, need to remember. I
can't tell you how many times I've heard agents talk about opening a
query and tossing it after an overly-familiar salutation such as, Dear
Jane. They demand a showing of respect. Are we less worthy? I think not.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:16 am

I agree that manners are still important.

That's why I said some change is not such a good thing.

Some people have become casual with manners to be approachable. And I agree, a person can be approachable without giving up manners.

Our son was raised with manners. He calls all his aunts and uncles by their title. He even refers to my sister who is only four years older than him as his Aunt Lianne.

My sister in law was very surprised when he went into her kitchen and asked "Aunt Renee, may I have a glass of water?" She told him "Of course Joe! Help yourself. You don't need to ask." My son looked at me in confusion. I told my sister in law "actually he does".

Funny thing, part of the reason I made sure we taught our son manners was because I had not been given proper training as a child. Embarassed

_________________
~ JoElle ~
http://www.joellemartin.com

Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:20 am

Good for you, JoElle. Your children will be among the few who are welcomed by adults of all ages.

After browsing the forum, I see this conversation is also on Dick's post about annoying agents.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:03 am

Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:10 am

JoElle, I feel pride for him as well, and I don't even know him. Thank
goodness for the young men and women like him, and for parents who
instill values in their children.

I'll join with others who, I'm sure, pray for his safety.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:42 am

Brenda and JoElle, I could not agree more. And BRAVO! to you and your husband, JoElle, for raising such an upstanding young man. His manners are sure to rub off on his son, and I too hope for his safety.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:30 pm

Some newspapers, including the NY Times, are again referring to people by title. That's good, unless carried to extreme.
When I worked for the evening paper in Muncie an older man on the morning paper sometimes went a little to0 far. Years after the event I read a story announcing the arrival of the Pittsburgh Pirates in town for spring training. The man wrote that Mr. Frank Frisch and Mr. William Elliott were the first to carry their suitcases from the depot to the hotel. Every baseball fan in the country knew Bill Elliott and even most of those who were not fans were aware of Frankie Frisch, the Fordham Flash. Rather than enhancing their images, his style did the opposite.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:27 pm

I agree about using proper etiquette and all that, but...

One of pettest peeves is when I meet a new person, offer them my hand,
and say, "Hello. I'm Phil," to which they offer me a limp hand and
reply, "I'm MISTER Smith."

See the implication there? I gave them my first name, to which he
raised his status above mine. Hell, I don't even like to be called
Mister Whitley. That was my dad!
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Subject: Re: Protocol Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:41 pm

LOL Phil - that's a good point that you've raised, and hopefully something that we would only come across rarely. Smile

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Pam Robertson

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Subject: Re: Protocol Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:27 pm

It happens to me quite frequently, Pam. Maybe I just look like someone who needs an authority figure. geek

If they introduce themselves first, using the Mr./Mrs. title, I still reply by saying, "I'm Phil. Nice to meet you, Mister Smith," with a little cynicism on the mister part.

And a limp, dishrag handshake? I like to give it a little extra squeeze - just enough to make their knees buckle.
_________________
Brew
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"Let us dare to read, think, speak and write." ~ John Adams, 1765

Subject: Re: Protocol Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:32 am

My father was a very distinguished, respectful man, but shy and not too outgoing early in life. Later in life he became much more casual, outgoing, and seemed much happier and enjoying life.

My family is a very respectful family, probably a result of family tradition from many generations ago.

One thing I never liked was when I was addressed as Mrs. Thomas Troestler. My name is Carol, not Thomas.

When I owned a business and was the boss, although I was friendly, the employees still treated me apart from them. (not exactly on a pedestal.) But we had a director who kept the business details together, and she and I worked together well, as equals. I still tell people she worked with me, not for me.

My grandchildren do come and make themselves at home. I did give them permission to do so, however. Most are in high school and are absolutely delightful people.

Carol

Subject: Re: Protocol Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:18 am

I have to believe that part of the decline in showing respect began when teachers began the “casual movement”. I went through 16 years of school and I don’t think I could tell you the first name of any teacher I had. It was always Mister , Misses or Miss XXXX. Then when my kids went to school a lot of the male teachers stopped wearing ties and wore sport or tee shirts and told the kids to call them by their first names. Many of the female teachers appeared to be trying to see who could out dress who. The most informal teacher I had was my high school football coach, Mister Timmerman. He told us when we were on the field we could call him Coach or Mister T, and practice was the only time I ever saw him without a tie.

I have a terrific young couple (mid forties) for neighbors. They both address me as Mister Stephens. I only tried once to tell them, “call me Don”. Then I accepted the fact they were showing respect and accepted it proudly.

I guess I’m showing my age, but I would never think of addressing a new business associate by their first name without their suggesting it and most of the time I’m much older than they are.
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Subject: Re: Protocol Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:20 am

I agree with Phil about a limp (weak) handshake. You immediately want to wash your hands after touching them.
The next worst thing is someone shaking your hand without looking at you. That pisses me off the most. If someone shakes my hand I expect to be acknowledged as the person whose hand is being held.
That is quite different from using the proper "protocol" as mentioned in starting this thread. Giving people respect as dictated by their culture is good business and good manners. Usually when you give respect, you get it in return. You don't give it, you don't get it.
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